discussion Youtube's Bitcoin Rap Battle Debate: a more in-depth discussion

[kyoukage01 3181]

First up: I know that there is already a topic for this.

https://cryptotalk.org/topic/8452-bitcoin-rap-battle-crypto-vs-banks/

My reasons for putting up another similar topic are as follows:

Spoiler

The linked video was itself interesting, but the following comments in the topic weren't much so. Barely no one has made a meaningful discussion about the contents of the video even after more than a year has passed, just some repetitive comments like "thanks for the video", "this video is interesting", "I'll watch this", etc.

 

I can try to steer the topic into another direction, but I doubt if anyone will respond. And the chance of the OP updating the topic is pretty slim at this point, given that he has been inactive for quite a long time already.

 

I am invoking the (unwritten in official rules, but widely accepted otherwise) forum stipulation that a member can make another topic on the same subject as long as the content of the new post is vastly different from the previous one.

 

I've created this topic so we can have a more in-depth discussion about the contents of the video. Each points presented deserves special attention: however, since the video was made in a rap battle format, further discussions in the video itself are limited. The makers of the video have to balance out the information and entertainment value of it after all. So it is up to us now to fill up the vacancy on the more serious discussion.

 

Our loyalties to crypto is obvious: you and I probably won't be registering in this forum in the first place if we're not.

But to make this discussion MORE FUN  🥳🎉🎉, I would like to introduce a special rule first, just for this particular topic:

• Before posting your first comment here, make sure you declare on which side you're on first. And try to stick to it.

(Choosing the neutral side is NOT allowed! 😁 )

(Declaring your side but not adding additional comments to that post will be considered as a 'useless content' offense and is also NOT allowed.)

(Just one announcement is okay, no need to declare on succeeding posts. If you want to change sides (Turncoats!!! 😂 ), you may edit your first post with the announcement, then update your next post declaring so. You can then proceed with the discussion as normal.)

 

I'll start. I know 99% of you guys are going to pick Nakamoto-san,

so I'll choose Mr. Alexander Hamilton's side for this discussion.

This discussion won't go anywhere if nobody's going to play the villain. Somebody's gotta do it. 😈

I'm not an economic expert on fiat (or anything crypto-related for that matter), but I'll do my best 🙂 .

 

If you haven't watched the Youtube video yet, you can watch it from here.

Spoiler

 

 

... ... ...

 

Don't forget to quote a specific line if you want to make an approval/rebuttal on my or others' comments. Just an extra precaution to avoid confusion in our discussion 😄 .

This topic post is quite long: Please, please, PLEASE, do NOT quote this post IN FULL. Quoting only the parts you want to comment on will suffice.

 

The lyrics of the rap battle were taken from this article (with a few minor corrections).

https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/this-absurd-rap-battle-summarizes-the-arguments-for-and-against-cryptocurrency/

 

I've chosen not to comment too much in favor of Bitcoin and Satoshi Nakamoto in this post on purpose - some of you must help defend him!!!

 

Without further ado, let's proceed with the main discussion.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Before we begin, everyone do me a favor,
And read a little thing I wrote called the Federalist Papers.
I explain how a nation’s unlikely to survive
Without a strong central government to keep it alive,
When I launched the central bank, Jefferson called me ill,
Now you have my face to thank on every ten dollar-bill.
When America was cash-strapped, I pushed past that,
Now some sicko makes crypto and our nation backtracks.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Decentralized currency. Yes, I invented it.
I’m sure many governments wish they had prevented it
Their national cash is how they keep control,
But freedom to the people was my ultimate goal.
Am I a pseudonym? A group of men? It doesn’t even matter.
I invented Bitcoin cause fiat is a disaster.
A man from Japan or a damn hologram?
I’m the reason open season on crypto began.

Since the beginning of human civilization, there has always been a need for a medium of exchange. The concept of the fiat currency may have been relatively new, being the one who replaced the flawed gold standard and all, but its function is basically the same. The only difference is that centralization of the fiat is an absolute necessity. In this way, restrictions on printing money can be enforced. The production of fake money by criminals is particularly suppressed.

 

On the other hand, yeah sure, Bitcoin's total supply is capped at a fixed amount determined by its creator (21 million BTC). But what about the other cryptocurrencies? What is our guarantee that cryptocurrencies cannot be faked, if not by criminals, then by the developers themselves?

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Does anybody know what this crypto-thing means?
To me, sounds like the new Get Broke Quick scheme,
A bunch of fools from across the land
Investing in something they don’t even understand,
Buying Litecoin, Dash, Bitcoin Cash,
It’s all gonna crash, and be gone in a flash.
All this unsupported money’s an irrational prank,
And I’ll be laughing all the way to my National Bank.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Hahahahahah, yeah dude, super funny,
As if banks these days still helped people make money.
The rich get richer and we follow like we’re all sheep,
The banks serve Wall Street, crypto serves all streets,
The interest in crypto’s on rapid ascent
What’s your current interest? Like, half a percent?
I’m sorry, the bank’s gone past its peak
But I want info encrypted, not hacked and leaked.

For one thing, cryptocurrency is a very hard subject to understand, I doubt even a kindergartener can use it. And being a digital currency, the toddler has to learn how to use a computer first, which you wouldn't see any normal kindergarten school teaching this subject. On the other hand, using pennies to buy candies from a store is almost as easy as [1 + 1].

 

See what happens when people invest in "something they don't really understand"? They buy Bitcoins when it's 'overpriced' then the BTC market drops, and they lose a lot on their investment. Don't even start on lecturing them to do a Google search, the computer tech lingo is like Greek to the average Joe. With BTC going for another ATH this late 2020, there's going to be more victims of making wrong investments based on false promises of getting rich. BTC may get to be more expensive after some more years have passed, but most of these people are not that patient or may even be deceased by that time.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
If this crypto system will be our salvation,
It needs to be centralized, needs regulation.
If our central database gets… how you say, “hacked?”
Insurance will just make a case to get your money back.
‘Cause in fact, it’s tracked, and the money leaves a trail.
Central currency is strong, cryptocurrency is frail.
Untraceable money — Wow! so clever.
One typo in your address? Now it’s gone forever.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Crypto is frail? That’s the essence of your lesson?
Your money leaves a trail? Yeah, a trail to a recession.
A buncha rich white guys made this system.
Why would they ever change this, when It’s made them rich men!
Movie moguls fought hard against the VCR.
Horse and buggy manufacturers all hated the car.
So why would I take my advice from the banks?
I don’t need a bailout to survive. Thanks!

Cryptocurrencies claim to be "decentralized", but centralized cryptocurrency exchanges are proving otherwise. Crypto exchanges have KYC, they can help track and/or block crypto hackers trying to dispose of their loot on the exchange, they have customer support if there is a problem, etc. You have to admit, centralization is important to cryptocurrencies as well.

 

Speaking of customer support, how about what happens when you lose your passwords and private keys? (There are plenty of ways to lose them: theft, arson, natural disasters, Alzheimer's, you name them.) Unlike banks, where your money is secure as long as your identity is preserved in their system, and if anything bad happens, you can always talk to a lawyer.

 

Spoiler

[Satoshi Nakamoto's backup singer]
The system is so broken.
We need that crypto token.

 

[Alexander Hamilton's backup singer]
The system isn’t broken.
Can we trust crypto tokens?

 

[Alexander Hamilton & backup singers]
It’s gotta be centralized!

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto & backup singers]
Decentralized!

 

[Alexander Hamilton & backup singers]
Centralized!!

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto & backup singers]
Decentralized!!

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
We need control!

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Free enterprise!

 

[Debate moderator]
Bring me the facts.
Please testify!

 

(Note: I've put this up for the sake of the completion of the lyrics. 🙂 )

 

Spoiler

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Fiat's the way a government controls the populace.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
Government protects its people. All of this is obvious.
They keep the peace, and so they keep control.
You want us ruled by crypto-miners no one even knows?

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Oh, it’s that "Strong Central Government" bit again.
They protect people, but only their citizens.
Crypto has no borders, it's a true global currency.
And censorship resistance for those who need it urgently.

This is where the points in the rap battle video gets very particular.

 

Without law, chaos in society will ensue. To ensure that laws will be enforced, governments exist. The whole economic system is also governed by laws, even Bitcoin is governed by laws embedded into its program. So Bitcoin in a way is also keeping control of crypto users, particularly in mining and transaction speeds.

 

Mining, I can accept that halving is necessary to produce scarcity and make Bitcoins more expensive as time goes by. But what about the Bitcoin whales? Some of these guys have especially large holdings of Bitcoin back when mining is cheap on hardware and electricity. Now when some of these whales are on the move, the Bitcoin market can sometimes go into a panic. To prevent this, websites like the Bitcoin whale alert (their link is here) have to exist just to let crypto users know their movements.

 

If this movement by Bitcoin whales isn't what you call market manipulation, then I don't know what else you call it.

 

Also, transaction speeds is slow on Bitcoin. Adjusting the Bitcoin code to accommodate the transactions should be a piece of cake, but why Satoshi Nakamoto didn't do it? Does he himself want some control after all? Maybe the ones supporting BTC hard forks like Bitcoin Cash has this same sentiment.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Banks earn trust by assuming liability.
You know a key, we know the customer explicitly.
Will the real Satoshi please stand up?
Nope, you’ll still be hiding when crypto busts.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
You don’t need to trust the people, you just need to trust the code.
Every record’s in the network, you’re just one node.
And when you find a flaw, there’s a software update.
Now try updating cash. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

All man-made systems are not 101% foolproof. Bitcoin is a man-made system, therefore it is not 101% foolproof: in fact, there is a topic about the most recent bug being discovered by Bitcoin engineers.

https://cryptotalk.org/topic/111177-bitcoin-engineers-have-again-discovered-blockchain-vulnerabilitynow-fixed/

 

There is no guarantee that some evil hacker will not be able to find a bug exploit in the code by chance. So if something remotely bad happens to Bitcoin's code and billions of dollars worth of BTC are affected, who's going to take responsibility for it? I'd feel bad for the current BTC developers if they are the ones who's going to take the fall.

 

I wouldn't say that fiat is perfect either. But if something bad happens, then the government can at least take the responsibility. If they don't, then the people involved can still face prosecution.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Wait? Cash works! You immediately pay.
Crypto's a far worse medium of exchange.
Can’t bitcoin the dentist, can’t bitcoin my breakfast.
Can’t even use bitcoin at bitcoin conventions.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
No currency starts with universal adoption.
It takes time for places to make it an option.
Plus billions of people don’t have bank accounts.
No savings, no interest, no checks to bounce.

LOL, this is one of my favorite lines in this rap battle, and Mr. Hamilton's point is spot on for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is digital currency, right? And Bitcoin needs a computer network, right? How about some countries and areas where computer networks are unavailable or too expensive to maintain?

 

And as I have mentioned above, cryptocurrencies is a hard subject, one which a kindergartener would have difficulty to understand. Even adults can have difficulty understanding the subject. There is a proverb saying that along the lines like "if something is already good enough, why change it?", and the general population in a certain country will be reluctant to adopt cryptocurrencies if it means its harder to use than fiat, which has been excellent already in that role.

 

So, is using Bitcoin worth it in those cases?

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
You’re saving the world? But what’s the price you’re paying?
The only change you’re creating is climate change.
Power grids spiking all across the land.
Overheated, no one needs it, hope it all gets banned.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
From the king of paper currency, the hypocrisy!
For bills and forms in triplicates, you’re killing all the trees.
Don’t like my power usage? Stop targeting my rights.
I own my purchased power and the market sets the price.

Nakamoto-san's counterargument on this one is pretty weak.

 

First, paper money today isn't technically made from trees AFAIK, it's made from stronger materials like cotton and abaca.

 

Second, Bitcoin miners may have had the right to use electricity no matter how much if they're going to pay for it anyway, but they should at least be considerate of the energy required to produce that electricity. Sure, everyone's involved in the global warming issue, you and I included, but Bitcoin miners whose energy source come from generators powered by fossil fuels can be pointed out as some of the ones who contributed the most.

 

And third, trees are a renewable resource (you can plant new ones), a large percentage of society's energy resource which is fossil fuels is nonrenewable. Bitcoin is actually helping deplete the world's fossil fuel reserves. Good luck to the promise of cold fusion if such a power source finally becomes commercially available in this century.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
It’s gonna get real dark if this is crypto’s night.
They use your currency for crimes, that’s your kryptonite.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Most crime is done with Benjamins, not the blockchain.
There’s a reason most dollars carry traces of cocaine.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
Where’s your proof of work? That’s pure speculation.
Those darknet black markets need more regulation.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
The world’s full of currencies, and this one makes it worse?
180 now, Bitcoin’s a hundred-eighty-first.

This issue where the counterargument that fiat is also used for crimes is getting old. So how about something else? Like, what if Bitcoin and cryptocurrency becomes THE normal mode of exchange? Criminals already know that Bitcoin accounts are private, but transactions are public. So the next obvious step is for criminals to use crypto coins whose accounts AND transactions are private. Such coins already exist: I'm not going to mention exactly what those coins are. What are our law enforcers going to do about it, if tracing such transactions are very difficult if not impossible?

 

Bitcoin's #181. So how about Ethereum? Litecoin? Tether? And all those 1000+ other altcoins, both living and dead? Can the cryptocurrency exchanges system help regulate these crypto coins alone?

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
It’s not the currency itself, it’s the method, man.
You can’t build things that last without a central plan.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Crypto is a balance to the centralized model.
Cause things fall apart. The center cannot hodl.

 

(Note: Mr. Hamilton and Nakamoto-san both basically sums up the whole debate in this line.)

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
If you end up having problems, I’ll feel bad for you, son.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
I’ve got 99 problems but a bit ain’t one.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
GUN!!!

 

(Note: Again, I've put this up for the sake of the completion of the lyrics. 🙂

Mr. Hamilton goes on tilt and demands a real-life duel. In this rap battle, he loses by default due to this reason. But you shouldn't use this as the only reason for voting against him in the poll above.)

 

... ... ...

 

Remember to abide by the rules of the forum when posting. The following are particularly important:

• No useless content
• No off topic remarks
• No hate speech

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by kyoukage01

[Whited35 15285]

I choose Nakamoto side, lol 🤣 ! 

Decentralized ! Decentralized !! And, Decentralized !!!

12 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

On the other hand, yeah sure, Bitcoin's total supply is capped at a fixed amount determined by its creator (21 million BTC). But what about the other cryptocurrencies? What is our guarantee that cryptocurrencies cannot be faked, if not by criminals, then by the developers themselves?

It depends on your choices since there are also flopped fiat currencies. A person has thousands of choices to choose the best fit crypto for his satisfaction. Some cryptocurrencies can not be trusted anymore due to the weak blockchain network and weakly managed codes but it does not mean all are the same. In the case of Bitcoin and other major Altcoins, they are looking strongest. So a person can have the freedom to choose the most unique coins from the bigger blockchain network if they can not trust developers of the smaller blockchain networks.

12 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

See what happens when people invest in "something they don't really understand"? They buy Bitcoins when it's 'overpriced' then the BTC market drops, and they lose a lot on their investment.

I do not wish to dig much into the traditional financial systems how they got evolved! There is very long stories about the evolution of physical currencies and their practical usage. Crypto is still at the starting phase and it has to take a very long adventure and also I love to say, crypto is the future currency for this world. You can not not imagine too early and exactly what will happen in the next 5-10 years in this world, probably everyone will be purchasing the goods from smartphone where crypto wallets are loaded and it will be much more easier than holding the physical pennies to get the things bought. 

13 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

Speaking of customer support, how about what happens when you lose your passwords and private keys?

 Precautions have to be taken while using anything in this world even for physical currencies and fiat currencies. If you can not trust the codes and mathematics, you can not trust blockchain in the decentralized system which means I have to trust no central entities except codes and encryption in the decentralized system without expecting customer support team. While using crypto wallet, you have to take care of your private keys and managing the things without letting third party to control is far more better. 

13 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

Bitcoin is digital currency, right? And Bitcoin needs a computer network, right? How about some countries and areas where computer networks are unavailable or too expensive to maintain?

Lol, yes Bitcoin is digital currency and it needs computer and network connection but what about your concept for computer ? Is not a smartphone is a sort of computer 🤣? If you locate the data from so many researches, you can find, even developing countries are rapidly progressing to expand internet connections through the cellular data packages. A smartphone with data connection is enough to access, send/receive, and exchange crypto easily everywhere. 

13 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

Nakamoto-san's counterargument on this one is pretty weak.

Wait, huh 🤣?

His logics are still strong. Majority of physical currencies are made from the ingredients taken from the trees. Producing, maintaining, and managing the physical currencies are much more expensive than running the mining machines by supplying the electricity. So many countries are producing electricity from the hydropower and solar plants and they are cheaper and clean as well. 

 

And last, you know, prices for cryptocurrencies are determined by the technology and the cryptocommunity. If anything gone wrong for certain blockchain network, rest of community will also know the things are not going well and market collapsed immediately so despite the malicious blockchain developers attempts to do wrong, their whole efforts will be worthless at all. 

You said centralized exchange sites are needed for exchanging the crypto but you know, the concept and practices of DeFi are already here. We are just expecting the mass adoption trends of crypto so that we can directly purchase goods by using our crypto.

 

[kyoukage01 3181]

Another reminder guys: you don't have to answer on each and every arguments in just one post. I wouldn't want you folks to spend literally hours just to write a single post here. Not that I'm going to stop you nor complain if you do it anyway 😅 .

 

@Whited35 Would you mind if I just answer a couple of your counterarguments for now?

 

20 hours ago, Whited35 said:

It depends on your choices since there are also flopped fiat currencies. A person has thousands of choices to choose the best fit crypto for his satisfaction. Some cryptocurrencies can not be trusted anymore due to the weak blockchain network and weakly managed codes but it does not mean all are the same. In the case of Bitcoin and other major Altcoins, they are looking strongest. So a person can have the freedom to choose the most unique coins from the bigger blockchain network if they can not trust developers of the smaller blockchain networks.

The problem is that a person who has no prior knowledge of crypto can be easily fooled, as various stories over these years tell us. There are projects that looked quite convincing during the ICO craze but turned out to be outright scams and Ponzi schemes. Same today with some DeFi projects.

 

Sticking to Bitcoin and top alts? Okay, fair enough. But choosing the right time to invest can be critically important as well. And Bitcoin can be very fickle when it comes to price stability.

 

This is a 'what if?' scenario. Suppose that I know nothing about crypto, bought Bitcoins with my salary priced at $21,000 BTC during today's bullrun, then its price crashed back to the pre-bullrun period after a few days or so. Now I got losses and my blood pressure rises in anger and rage due to this. Maybe it was a mistake on my part. Who's going to tell me about the right thing to do? The internet nowadays has a bunch of lies for every single fact. And those Bitcoin pop-up advertisements cropping up on my browser isn't helping at all.

 

20 hours ago, Whited35 said:

I do not wish to dig much into the traditional financial systems how they got evolved! There is very long stories about the evolution of physical currencies and their practical usage. Crypto is still at the starting phase and it has to take a very long adventure and also I love to say, crypto is the future currency for this world. You can not not imagine too early and exactly what will happen in the next 5-10 years in this world, probably everyone will be purchasing the goods from smartphone where crypto wallets are loaded and it will be much more easier than holding the physical pennies to get the things bought. 

I'll admit that progress should be made in this digital age, and digital currencies are the next step. But over-reliance on digital technology can have bad consequences. In the case of natural disasters and electricity and digital networks go down as a result, can these cryptocurrencies still be used? I doubt it, since cryptocurrencies depend entirely on digital networks.

 

And my argument that a kindergartener can use pennies much easier than a crypto wallet still stands. Not to mention less expensive in case of accidental loss or theft by school bullies. You know how kids are.

 

[Whited35 15285]

2 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

Another reminder guys: you don't have to answer on each and every arguments in just one post. I wouldn't want you folks to spend literally hours just to write a single post here. Not that I'm going to stop you nor complain if you do it anyway 😅 .

It just took me 20 minutes. If there is restriction for the long counter-comments, how can it be meaningful debate 🤣? 

2 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

The problem is that a person who has no prior knowledge of crypto can be easily fooled, as various stories over these years tell us. There are projects that looked quite convincing during the ICO craze but turned out to be outright scams and Ponzi schemes. Same today with some DeFi projects.

Nothing is 100% perfect. Yes, cryptocurrency also has. Before holding anything, a person should have the basic ideas. Not just for crypto, a personal should be solely responsible for the losses if he holds physical currencies or fiat currencies without any ideas.

Regarding your concern for ICO and their scam exit, you can think, malicious members are everywhere. And, as you have said, yes it is the way to choose already established assets like Bitcoin to be safe from such scam projects. Regarding its(crypto) nature and price, investors can have at least the basic ideas. 

[kyoukage01 3181]

9 hours ago, Whited35 said:

If there is restriction for the long counter-comments, how can it be meaningful debate 🤣? 

There is no restriction, I only said it out of consideration for the other members. Especially with beginners, as I figure that they can relate more to Mr. Hamilton being ignorant on crypto and have a lot of questions to ask.

 

And like I also said, I won't complain nor stop anyone from trying to do that otherwise 🙂 .

 

9 hours ago, Whited35 said:

Nothing is 100% perfect. Yes, cryptocurrency also has. Before holding anything, a person should have the basic ideas. Not just for crypto, a personal should be solely responsible for the losses if he holds physical currencies or fiat currencies without any ideas.

Regarding your concern for ICO and their scam exit, you can think, malicious members are everywhere. And, as you have said, yes it is the way to choose already established assets like Bitcoin to be safe from such scam projects. Regarding its(crypto) nature and price, investors can have at least the basic ideas.

You're basically admitting the flaws of cryptocurrencies with this remark 😁 . So I'll go on with the other counterarguments.

 

On 12/19/2020 at 2:28 PM, Whited35 said:

 Precautions have to be taken while using anything in this world even for physical currencies and fiat currencies. If you can not trust the codes and mathematics, you can not trust blockchain in the decentralized system which means I have to trust no central entities except codes and encryption in the decentralized system without expecting customer support team. While using crypto wallet, you have to take care of your private keys and managing the things without letting third party to control is far more better. 

As Mr. Hamilton mentioned in the rap battle, "insurance will make a case to get your money back". And in rare cases where a person's fiat money becomes legally irretrievable due to varying circumstances, that money that was saved in the bank still exists there. What to do with it depends on that country's laws and policies.

 

As for Bitcoin? If your wallet and/or private keys are lost, those Bitcoins are irretrievable, and you might as well consider them 'burned coins' and forever lost. Which reminded me of a case where a guy literally threw his Bitcoin into the trash can.

https://cryptotalk.org/topic/100818-bitcoin-treasure-hunting-mechanic-is-it-possible/?do=findComment&comment=6716297

 

On 12/19/2020 at 2:28 PM, Whited35 said:

Lol, yes Bitcoin is digital currency and it needs computer and network connection but what about your concept for computer ? Is not a smartphone is a sort of computer 🤣? If you locate the data from so many researches, you can find, even developing countries are rapidly progressing to expand internet connections through the cellular data packages. A smartphone with data connection is enough to access, send/receive, and exchange crypto easily everywhere. 

A smartphone is one thing, a person's intellect is another matter entirely. Try introducing crypto to countries and/or areas with high digital illiteracy rates and see their reactions.

 

Before introducing crypto to certain demographics, they should be educated first, and it's going to take a long time. Unlike fiat which is basically not much different from the money we've been using ever since civilization began.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by kyoukage01

[rekter 8129]

note: I am not sure how to keep politics out from this but i'll do my best

 

I can't believe this but i am going to pick Hamilton. I would have chosen neutral if that was an option. There are reasons why i believe in the future of cryptos but only one of them were mentioned in this battle. IMHO there were only couple arguments that were solid, and most of them were misguided from both sides.

 

This whole "debate" is narrowed to decentralization against decentralization and personal freedom against government, which is pretty superficial way look at this but this is just one song after all.

 

I'll follow @kyoukage01's lead and start to analyze earch verse.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Before we begin, everyone do me a favor,
And read a little thing I wrote called the Federalist Papers.
I explain how a nation’s unlikely to survive
Without a strong central government to keep it alive,
When I launched the central bank, Jefferson called me ill,
Now you have my face to thank on every ten dollar-bill.
When America was cash-strapped, I pushed past that,
Now some sicko makes crypto and our nation backtracks.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Decentralized currency. Yes, I invented it.
I’m sure many governments wish they had prevented it
Their national cash is how they keep control,
But freedom to the people was my ultimate goal.
Am I a pseudonym? A group of men? It doesn’t even matter.
I invented Bitcoin cause fiat is a disaster.
A man from Japan or a damn hologram?
I’m the reason open season on crypto began.

 

I am pretty sure that most people in crypto haven't read the Bitcoin white paper but even less has read the federalist papers. I think it's a solid argument to try to study the opposition before trying to get rid of it completely. 

 

There's no real winner here, Satoshi is defending money of the people and personal freedom, while Hamilton is saying that there's a good reason why government and banks exist as they are build to keep the nation alive. My take on this is that Satoshi has tried to fix a broken system with the system that raises even more concerns then the original. He is on the right track and and his invention is so much out of the box and extraoridinary, that we don't even have a clue about the ripple effect it will have. 

 

Blockchain brings ton of possibilities, but we are in uncharted waters as we have nothing to compare this tech with. And here are some obvious problems with the blockchain tech that we need to fix before it's ready.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Does anybody know what this crypto-thing means?
To me, sounds like the new Get Broke Quick scheme,
A bunch of fools from across the land
Investing in something they don’t even understand,
Buying Litecoin, Dash, Bitcoin Cash,
It’s all gonna crash, and be gone in a flash.
All this unsupported money’s an irrational prank,
And I’ll be laughing all the way to my National Bank.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Hahahahahah, yeah dude, super funny,
As if banks these days still helped people make money.
The rich get richer and we follow like we’re all sheep,
The banks serve Wall Street, crypto serves all streets,
The interest in crypto’s on rapid ascent
What’s your current interest? Half a percent?
I’m sorry, the bank’s gone past its peak
But I want info encrypted, not hacked and leaked.

 

Only argument that actually holds water is that people will invest to something they don't understand. This has been a real concern of mine. I've been contacted by friends that want to invest cryptos now but they think that bitcoin is too expensive and they were ready invest to all kinds of scams.

 

During the huge bullrun this isn't a problem to people because they will be making money with everything for a while. But the problem is that people start to believe in it. Even when it's a scam, and eventually they lose everything.

 

If i am being completely honest, people don't understand governement money either but at least it's more stable and you aren't in a danger of losing 80% in a day if you are storing it to FIAT of a stable country. 

 

Satoshi Nakamoto's points of view in this are just weird. How crypto is any better on wealth decenralization? It's in the hands of even fewer people and most of it are in the pockets of whales.

 

Bragging about having higher ROI is solid argument, but fiat isn't a store of value really, it's for trading goods and services. And often people with lots of money don't store it all as in FIAT, but in stocks and commodities.

 

And what encrypted info is he talking about? There are numerous of cases of wallets get hacked because people can't store their private keys, sometimes people even get targeted by criminals personally and then you wish you had a bank level security. And since blockchain transaction are public, privacy doesn't seem to be concern here either. And even pseudonymity that comes with the blockchain, carries only so far. Usually it stops to fiat ramp.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
If this crypto system will be our salvation,
It needs to be centralized, needs regulation.
If our central database gets… how you say, “hacked?”
Insurance will just make a case to get your money back.
‘Cause in fact, it’s tracked, and the money leaves a trail.
Central currency is strong, cryptocurrency is frail.
Untraceable money — Wow! so clever.
One typo in your address? Now it’s gone forever.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Crypto is frail? That’s the essence of your lesson?
Your money leaves a trail? Yeah, a trail to a recession.
A buncha rich white guys made this system.
Why would they ever change this, when It’s made them rich men!
Movie moguls fought hard against the VCR.
Horse and buggy manufacturers all hated the car.
So why would I take my advice from the banks?
I don’t need a bailout to survive. Thanks!

 

This is actually the best point against crypto currencies imho. The whole essence and power of cryptocurrencies is an immutable and unstoppable ledger but in a current form it's also the downfall of it.

 

Right now wallets don't have too many safety measures that protect people from messing up. They are constantly being developed and that's good but still if you send something in a wrong address it's gone forever. This is unacceptable and the users shouldn't be liable when they don't understand what they are doing. Some people struggle just using computers.

 

People are also figuring out new ideas to find a work arounds for this but these won't ever be implemented to Bitcoin for example.

 

Satoshi's point is basically that status quo always hates dispruptive tech that messes up their view of natural order. This is true and we see it happening often when gold holders speak against bitcoin. It's true that the infrastructure for cryptos isn't ready yet. It probably will be later but not yet.

 

Spoiler

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Fiat's the way a government controls the populace.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
Government protects its people. All of this is obvious.
They keep the peace, and so they keep control.
You want us ruled by crypto-miners no one even knows?

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Oh, it’s that "Strong Central Government" bit again.
They protect people, but only their citizens.
Crypto has no borders, it's a true global currency.
And censorship resistance for those who need it urgently.

 

Here's the thing. Government money needs to be only essential currency in order for it to work. So naturally they are suspicious for anything that tries to overthrow it because a superiour currency that they can't control could mess their own economy up pretty quickly.

 

But this is also the best case for the bitcoin as a borderless money, because there are countries where you can't use the argument where government is for the people. In those places, bitcoin could help people. Bank accounts could help them as well and this is where banks mess up by rejecting customers.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Banks earn trust by assuming liability.
You know a key, we know the customer explicitly.
Will the real Satoshi please stand up?
Nope, you’ll still be hiding when crypto busts.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
You don’t need to trust the people, you just need to trust the code.
Every record’s in the network, you’re just one node.
And when you find a flaw, there’s a software update.
Now try updating cash. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

 

In this they are just talking about different things. Hamilton speaks about liability and who is responsible and i already talked about that. While satoshi just points to the code, that isn't helping the case.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
Wait? Cash works! You immediately pay.
Crypto's a far worse medium of exchange.
Can’t bitcoin the dentist, can’t bitcoin my breakfast.
Can’t even use bitcoin at bitcoin conventions.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
No currency starts with universal adoption.
It takes time for places to make it an option.
Plus billions of people don’t have bank accounts.
No savings, no interest, no checks to bounce.

 

This works in favour of Hamilton for now, but it's true that Crypto infrastructure isn't ready and being in the middle of price discovery isn't helping. so it's a low blow, and i am using my bitcoin for daily purchases, even if it's trough 3rd person applications and turn it to EUR inside that app, it still has value.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
You’re saving the world? But what’s the price you’re paying?
The only change you’re creating is climate change.
Power grids spiking all across the land.
Overheated, no one needs it, hope it all gets banned.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
From the king of paper currency, the hypocrisy!
For bills and forms in triplicates, you’re killing all the trees.
Don’t like my power usage? Stop targeting my rights.
I own my purchased power and the market sets the price.

 

I give this to Satoshi. Not for his answer, but for the misguided words of Hamilton. 

In comparison, current banking system and gold digging are taking way more energy. I admit that POW is unsustainable in the long run and it's a real problem but projects like ETH are trying to tackle with it and i really hope their solution works in a long run.

 

Spoiler

[Alexander Hamilton]
It’s gonna get real dark if this is crypto’s night.
They use your currency for crimes, that’s your kryptonite.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
Most crime is done with Benjamins, not the blockchain.
There’s a reason most dollars carry traces of cocaine.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]
Where’s your proof of work? That’s pure speculation.
Those darknet black markets need more regulation.

 

[Satoshi Nakamoto]
The world’s full of currencies, and this one makes it worse?
180 now, Bitcoin’s a hundred-eighty-first.

 

This i give to Satoshi as well and Alexander's points are irrelevant. Just because Bitcoin hasn't been regulated in the doesn't mean that we aren't in the road for being highly regulated. 

 

Rest of the lyrics are trivial.

Edited December 21, 2020 by rekter
fixed some typing mistakes

[Whited35 15285]

14 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

You're basically admitting the flaws of cryptocurrencies with this remark 😁 . So I'll go on with the other counterarguments.

Lol, flaws of cryptocurrencies, are you serious 😂?

14 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

As for Bitcoin? If your wallet and/or private keys are lost, those Bitcoins are irretrievable, and you might as well consider them 'burned coins' and forever lost. Which reminded me of a case where a guy literally threw his Bitcoin into the trash can.

Unfortunately, you reverted to the same point which was already counter-commented but anyway, some demerits are there in the blockchain technology but as Satoshi said in the battle, software will be upgraded by devs according to the pace of technology and at the certain point of time in future, advanced wallet will come with the extended feature to manage private keys. Until then, it is not the way to push everything merit sides of blockchain into the shadow and also not the way to be fully attached with the traditional financial system if we believe in revolution. Myself, as a human, by the nature, I seek freedom to manage my hard earnings and I do not wish to get restricted due to credit history while performing many important financial activities and yes, crypto is there to be operated 24/7 for my satisfactions  😎😁 ! 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Whited35
Minor error in texts.

[kyoukage01 3181]

@rekter

On 12/20/2020 at 11:42 PM, rekter said:

I can't believe this but i am going to pick Hamilton.

Welcome to the club 🙂 .

 

As much as I would like to comment on your post, since we're both on the same team, I can't, for obvious reasons. But your suggestion to look up the "Federalist Papers" is a good one. I might ask you for a copy or a link to it sometime in case I can't find it on Google.

 

On 12/20/2020 at 11:42 PM, rekter said:

I am not sure how to keep politics out from this but i'll do my best

If things go too far, I'll make sure to sound the alarm for you guys. I'm the OP so the responsibility falls on me to take care of this topic.

 

@Whited35

On 12/21/2020 at 1:16 PM, Whited35 said:

Lol, flaws of cryptocurrencies, are you serious 😂?

Well, you could have pointed out the flaws of fiat instead. But you highlighted how crypto users get losses and being exit scammed in that remark. And the problem of scam ICO project "(so-called)developers" getting away with it due to their anonymity isn't resolved.

 

On 12/21/2020 at 1:16 PM, Whited35 said:

Unfortunately, you reverted to the same point which was already counter-commented

Did I? *skims through previous posts* Looks like I did after all. My bad then, sorry. But it shows how bad that situation with lost wallets / private keys can be. If there is a project that offers a solution to prevent this, then I'm all ears.

On 12/21/2020 at 1:16 PM, Whited35 said:

but anyway, some demerits are there in the blockchain technology but as Satoshi said in the battle, software will be upgraded by devs according to the pace of technology and at the certain point of time in future, advanced wallet will come with the extended feature to manage private keys. Until then, it is not the way to push everything merit sides of blockchain into the shadow and also not the way to be fully attached with the traditional financial system if we believe in revolution. Myself, as a human, by the nature, I seek freedom to manage my hard earnings and I do not wish to get restricted due to credit history while performing many important financial activities and yes, crypto is there to be operated 24/7 for my satisfactions  😎😁 ! 

Altcoins sure are stepping up with developments to meet those challenges.

 

But what about Bitcoin? No BTC 2.0? Projects like the Lightning network are basically just appendages, no changes to BTC itself. Nakamoto-san should give some serious thought about improving his own creation, if he is still alive.

 

I admit that the concept of the blockchain is innovative and useful, and conventional institutions does so too. On that note, those institutions will make full use of that technology without using cryptocurrency itself. Don't take me too hard on this, but some conservative individuals and institutions are thinking along the lines of "Blockchain is useful, crypto is trash 👿 " and some of those individuals are heavyweights in the financial world.

https://cointelegraph.com/magazine/2019/10/08/crypto-skeptics

Okay, the people on the linked article aren't necessarily advocating blockchain without crypto, but you get the point. There are also plenty of news and articles of institutions implementing blockchain technology but made no mention of any kind of crypto coins.

 

EDIT:

@rekter

20 hours ago, rekter said:

Here you go https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/full-text

I sent you a PM. 😉

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by kyoukage01

[rekter 8129]

4 hours ago, kyoukage01 said:

As much as I would like to comment on your post, since we're both on the same team, I can't, for obvious reasons. But your suggestion to look up the "Federalist Papers" is a good one. I might ask you for a copy or a link to it sometime in case I can't find it on Google.

 

Here you go https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/full-text

 

I realized that i haven't read that either and myself downloaded an audiobook version. But i am starting to think after skimming it that i might not understand all the historical references, contexts and nyances when it comes to economics and history.

 

 

For example this pdf version ( https://files.libertyfund.org/files/788/0084_LFeBk.pdf ) has like 100 pages of editorial notes and a readers guide for it. So i am thinking i might need to read that first to understand anything meaningful.

 

If you want an audiobook, there's lots of versions in youtube too https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=federalist+papers+audiobook

[Whited35 15285]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:45 AM, kyoukage01 said:

But what about Bitcoin? No BTC 2.0? Projects like the Lightning network are basically just appendages, no changes to BTC itself. Nakamoto-san should give some serious thought about improving his own creation, if he is still alive.

Nakamoto-san alone should not necessarily to think about upgrading Bitcoin network like Ethereum is doing so now. The codes are opensource and tech-savvy blockchain experts can roll out to upgrade the networks systematically like Ethereum foundation is doing now. Satoshi just reinvented the technology, left it to the community and eventually got disappeared. Even now, Bitcoin engineers are repeatedly fixing the bugs and they might also think about the upgrading the network but the problem is, full upgrade process might take more than 4 years or so as the Bitcoin blockchain network is the largest open source network on the planet. 

[jackycrypto485 1055]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:01 PM, kyoukage01 said:

 The only difference is that centralization of the fiat is an absolute necessity. In this way, restrictions on printing money can be enforced. The production of fake money by criminals is particularly suppressed.

 

In fact, what is happening now at the present time proves that this opinion is wrong, in the Corona virus crisis most governments resorted to printing more banknotes, which led to an increase in inflation and the loss of the paper currency its value, manipulation did not happen by criminals but by the central government itself?
This is what happens when some stupid central government officials control the fate of the entire monetary system.
This is an example from the reality that proves that centralization is a completely wrong thing to do with decentralization.

[Whited35 15285]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:45 AM, kyoukage01 said:

https://cointelegraph.com/magazine/2019/10/08/crypto-skeptics

Okay, the people on the linked article aren't necessarily advocating blockchain without crypto, but you get the point. There are also plenty of news and articles of institutions implementing blockchain technology but made no mention of any kind of crypto coins.

As I have been following this thread, I am back once again to check the progress in this thread but no luck 😁 ! I would like to see some guys to share their ideas in this thread so instead of mentioning them here, I might send them PM to check. This is one of the most evergreen topic to exhibit opinion regarding the supports to Bitcoin or traditional financial system.